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November 2009 
Has anyone met an enlightened human being?
Posted on Aug 29th, 2008
by 
Centria
Centria
Have you ever met an enlightened person?
I haven't.
I have read lots of books about people who seemed like they might be enlightened. And have heard stories of gurus and other individuals who seem to be enlightened. But I have never met one.
There are lots of people who seem to have some basic understandings of things like Oneness, no self, compassion, wisdom, love, awareness, the Nagual, Buddha, Jesus, emptiness, the Tao, surrender, essence, Being and freedom.
There are lots people who seem to have learned such major truths as the planet circles around the sun. Almost everyone I have met has some wisdom to share. My daughter said today, "If you are ever feeling sad, look at the sky. The sky always changes. It is never the same. It is always beautiful." To me, that is an amazing revelation coming forth. I was so honored to hear those words. She has realized something.
Like my daughter, every person I have met on Gaia has had some realizations to share. Some of those realizations have made me cry....some have caused laughter.....some have propelled deep thought....some have even assisted a deeper understanding of some awareness. Yet do these realizations really have anything to do with enlightenment?
A person can talk and talk about an experience of Oneness or Being or freedom, but does that mean they are enlightened? Does that mean that they have something the rest of us don't have?
I am suspicious of the word "enlightenment". I am suspicious that it even exists. I am suspicious that, even if it does exist, there would be a word which could be wrapped around such a concept. If anyone says, "I am enlightened"....what would that mean? If someone else says, "I am not enlightened"....what would that mean? Is there any way a person can be both enlightened and unenlightened simultaneously?
I am also dismayed that the very concept of "enlightenment" can be used to separate, to shame, to judge, to compare. People will point fingers and claim someone thinks they're enlightened when they're obviously not, or others of us will dissect the concept endlessly until it sounds like just empty words, incapable to grasp or easily understand. We'll look at others and judge, "oh that person is not enlightened" or "that person thinks he's enlightened, but obviously he isn't" or "why can't I be enlightened?"
One of the continued joys in my life has been the ceasing of seeking enlightenment. (Some of you may recall this blog from a few months ago.) It is such a relief. Just to be, to express, to learn, to share, to gain new awarenesses every day! Oh the relief. Every day some new realization. And that's enough. More than enough.
Every day someone here on Gaia teaches me more just by their essence, their being. We are surrounded by wise human beings who also may experience what they perceive to be as flaws and challenges. We are also surrounded by frail human beings who choose to experience what it means to be separate, to feel so-called "negative" emotions, who lash out and hurt, who suffer. These beings teach, as well. And I suspect that we're both; the wise ones and the frail ones, somehow combined, somehow utilizing these trips around the sun to expand our awareness.
It's not just people who can teach us about this strange concept of enlightenment. The earth also teaches, as do the rocks, the feathers, the dreams, the trees, the deer, the grass under our feet.
As each of us continue to grow and realize who we really are, maybe one of us will suddenly realize what enlightenment is. And share it with the rest of us. Or maybe they won't. Maybe part of the realization will be that it can't be shared without losing it. So the first time someone opens his or her mouth to begin explaining enlightenment.....whatever is coming forth is not enlightenment. Therefore, we may never know if we've ever met an enlightened human being, because they're not going to be talking about it.
I haven't.
I have read lots of books about people who seemed like they might be enlightened. And have heard stories of gurus and other individuals who seem to be enlightened. But I have never met one.
There are lots of people who seem to have some basic understandings of things like Oneness, no self, compassion, wisdom, love, awareness, the Nagual, Buddha, Jesus, emptiness, the Tao, surrender, essence, Being and freedom.
There are lots people who seem to have learned such major truths as the planet circles around the sun. Almost everyone I have met has some wisdom to share. My daughter said today, "If you are ever feeling sad, look at the sky. The sky always changes. It is never the same. It is always beautiful." To me, that is an amazing revelation coming forth. I was so honored to hear those words. She has realized something.
Like my daughter, every person I have met on Gaia has had some realizations to share. Some of those realizations have made me cry....some have caused laughter.....some have propelled deep thought....some have even assisted a deeper understanding of some awareness. Yet do these realizations really have anything to do with enlightenment?
A person can talk and talk about an experience of Oneness or Being or freedom, but does that mean they are enlightened? Does that mean that they have something the rest of us don't have?
I am suspicious of the word "enlightenment". I am suspicious that it even exists. I am suspicious that, even if it does exist, there would be a word which could be wrapped around such a concept. If anyone says, "I am enlightened"....what would that mean? If someone else says, "I am not enlightened"....what would that mean? Is there any way a person can be both enlightened and unenlightened simultaneously?
I am also dismayed that the very concept of "enlightenment" can be used to separate, to shame, to judge, to compare. People will point fingers and claim someone thinks they're enlightened when they're obviously not, or others of us will dissect the concept endlessly until it sounds like just empty words, incapable to grasp or easily understand. We'll look at others and judge, "oh that person is not enlightened" or "that person thinks he's enlightened, but obviously he isn't" or "why can't I be enlightened?"
One of the continued joys in my life has been the ceasing of seeking enlightenment. (Some of you may recall this blog from a few months ago.) It is such a relief. Just to be, to express, to learn, to share, to gain new awarenesses every day! Oh the relief. Every day some new realization. And that's enough. More than enough.
Every day someone here on Gaia teaches me more just by their essence, their being. We are surrounded by wise human beings who also may experience what they perceive to be as flaws and challenges. We are also surrounded by frail human beings who choose to experience what it means to be separate, to feel so-called "negative" emotions, who lash out and hurt, who suffer. These beings teach, as well. And I suspect that we're both; the wise ones and the frail ones, somehow combined, somehow utilizing these trips around the sun to expand our awareness.
It's not just people who can teach us about this strange concept of enlightenment. The earth also teaches, as do the rocks, the feathers, the dreams, the trees, the deer, the grass under our feet.
As each of us continue to grow and realize who we really are, maybe one of us will suddenly realize what enlightenment is. And share it with the rest of us. Or maybe they won't. Maybe part of the realization will be that it can't be shared without losing it. So the first time someone opens his or her mouth to begin explaining enlightenment.....whatever is coming forth is not enlightenment. Therefore, we may never know if we've ever met an enlightened human being, because they're not going to be talking about it.
Access: Public
YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
i might have another comment later on after i get done going YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
I'd say there's a master and pupil inside all of us…
Blessing, Kathy.
every precious baby that is born…
I have - though they didn't refer to themselves as enlightened :) I have - they are the few sparkling souls that have inspired me when the rest of the world was noisy and heavy. I have - and I plan to write about them here and there blogging over time…
I'm not sure if they shared they were enlightened they'd lose it. My experience tells me they feel their authenticity is obvious, though perhaps expressed in other ways than conversations. They are often right there…not waiting to be seen, but there nonetheless.
They exist; they do. In a very deep, deep way. And they glow and reflect and shine…
Sure, I can talk about it, but I am surely not there. You hit the nail on the head at the very end. Few people who are enlightened will say they are, or even speak of it.
It comes down to what is for me an important distinction: that between “mystical experience” and “enlightenment” as I understand them.
- Mystical experience is that yummy, gooey, expansive Oneness, altered state. Anyone can have them and many of us have.
- Enlightenment is being awake and engaging with reality without having to alter it. This is incredibly difficult and few people master it.
Although I have not met him, I think the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being. He emanates love and kindness. it is not work for him to do so. Mother Teresa may have been another one…
We all have the capability to be enlightened, but we are also very human. We fall into existing patterns that keep us from staying enlightened. We may get there, but like an orgasm, it fades…(graphic, but seems to say what i want to say, lol)
We can all be enlightened.thinkers….! We can find the place inside of us that shines…and put a light on it. We can change our beliefs and our thoughts and our perceptions. We can bring our thoughts out of the dark encrusted prisons of our souls…and bring ourselves into the sunshine…!
Humbly bowing to you all….
Aley
I am with Starlight :) I believe that a child's heart is the most pure heart on Earth and they can teach us if we have ears to hear… and souls to understand…
children are beautiful and yet there is a glory in one who is truly childlike, having lived and laughed and suffered much… like Kathy -
Wilber would say that confusing the two is to fall into the Pre-Trans Fallacy
i think many of us have peak moments, important flashes of insight, like you have had, dear Kathy, and described for us. to be truly enlightened, i think one would have always to be living at that peak. i'm not sure that's humanly possible. but i'd love to be proven wrong.
As I read this, K, I feel like enlightenment is not an end, but a path. I don't know if true 100% enlightenment is possible, but I feel like I could be just a little more enlightened today than I was yesterday, and that should be the goal. I agree with the point that it should not be math - it shouldn't be someone saying my enlightenment > yours, nyah nyah nyah! … or anything like that, because there is no way to measure how enlightened one truly is. We can talk the talk but can we walk the walk? That is the question I have.
Let he or she with enlightenment cast the first stone!
You know you guys…..I am enjoying all your comments so much. You guys are the greatest; I love all these different perspectives coming in that share so much and “enlighten” us with these different unique pieces of wisdom. I hope you don't mind if I just let your comments stand on their own without commenting more on them.
Your light shines through….your realizations……it is so humbling and wonderful to know that everyone has a piece to offer to the whole.
Elisa, Paul, Starlight, Erin, Janet, Aley, Asteri, Nicole, Eric - thank you for what you all offer here on Gaia and in the world. If there is a state of enlightenment, I think it includes all of us. That maybe one person can't become enlightened, but together….well, that's a different matter. Maybe it's a state that includes the All of us? Maybe it's awareness of something that's bigger than any single person?
And maybe not, maybe I'm wrong. But I am loving what you have offered here. Deep bows to all.
I’m a little late and haven’t read the others’ comments. I NEVER understood the fascination with the word ‘enlightened’ that I found when I strolled along to zaadz, now GAIA. I swear I figured I had missed an episode… or four in human development.
I honestly thought this site was going to be about a bunch of active solutions, you know, brainstormers etc. about the world’s problems! Then I realise that for the most part people were trying to reach this place called enlightened! I was really very confused for a while there.
I didn’t get into it because it just didn’t seem to be my path. I’m so thankful now that I didn’t!
And nearly a year later, I still haven’t found any brainstorming sessions taking place. lol Oh well, at least I am more enlightened than I was before ;)
I don’t know the value of enlightened persons if they do exist, if they don’t actually do anything with this new found wisdom either… It should serve a purpose, don’t you think? Something bright and highly effective.
Anyone you know yet?
Sorry for any confusion amongst Notifications of comments. I posted one comment but it got so edited I decided to delete it and start over with this one.
Nothing much I think about the subject that hasn't been said by someone above. The term is generally meaningless in conversation, but I do have my own inner sense of what it means, and going by that, I think there are tens of thousands of enlightened people on the planet right now, many of them the new children, and I have met or encountered a whole bunch of those people.
The only new thing I might add is attributed to the G. Buddha: “The only barrier to your enlightenment is your belief that you are not already enlightened.”
And I go with those who say that it can be sought but not attained; it is our always already Beingness, and can only be remembered or realized. To the best I can see, it “happens,” rather than ever being achieved by effort.
Whatever “it” is.
Thanks for such a thoughtful perspective, with so much I agree with !!! In fact you have said much that I have said elsewhere - as per our usual synchrony.
And I agree that whatever “it” is, it has to include “walking the walk,” and kinda like Sherri, I think it “must” get put into action, though I wouldn't call “it” wisdom of any sort, it is Beingness, not a kind of knowledge or thoughts or understandings or wisdom or anything mental. And I wouldn't say “must” I would say it simply DOES get put into action because it cannot be otherwise, because as we express our Beingness, that's what action is, the expression of our Beingness. But it might not generate the same actions in everyone, or perhaps not all the actions we might judge as desirable….
My blog on Presence vs Awareness of Presence could be read with the idea of “enlightenment” in mind and make quite a bit of my perspective clear.
I plan to write quite a bit more about “enlightenment” in the future, but the important ideas are all here in this blog or comments. Waycool !!!!!!!!!!
Blessings, OM Bastet
Sherri, it sounds like you escaped the intriguing quest for enlightenment that has intrigued (or waylaid!) so many of us. You mean you weren't salivating into “Autobiography of a Yogi” by Yoganunda or “Total Freedom” by Krishnamurti or “Be Here Now” by Ram Dass?
I am kind of laughing, thinking of the hundreds of books that I read over the years in which my ego kept whining and whimpering, “But I want to be enlightened…..how come I can't be enlightened….if I just try hard enough I'm sure it will happen…..”
Having said that, maybe what is really meant by that state of enlightenment is that we can then choose to act with a responsiveness to being present in this world (with all its perfections and imperfections) and that we're no longer stuck with reactive answers. We might even be freer to act in bolder more responsive ways. So maybe the quest for enlightenment might eventually lead to people being more awake and acting fearlessly and fully. Which may be the same thing that you have been looking for on Gaia…..?
OM, I loved your blog on Presence vs Awareness of Presence. It was really good. When I read it, my mind sang, “yes! yes!” Seems like we do come from similar perspectives or synchrony. Here's something I love: the meditation practice of saying “I am not a body, I am not my thoughts, I am not my emotions, I am not a Lightworker (sorry to bring this up again!), I am not a self, I am not Enlightened, I am not……” We keep focused on what we are not. We begin to dis-identify with labels. The seriousness and solidity by which we label the world begins to crumble. So then the only question remains is: Who are we? And the only answer that greets us is Emptiness which is Full, or perhaps Awareness in the Moment. Beyond labels. Beyond hard definitions.
We look around. And with none of the hard labels there…..maybe there's just this enlightened Moment. With enlightened awareness.
Once again….I could be wrong! But that's my story in this moment. :)
This is enlightenment.
oooh Samme, great icon!
Sherri, part of the apparent obsession of zaadz now Gaia with Enlightenment is the driving force of Andrew Cohen's EnlightenNext organisation and the magazine “What is Enlightenment?” Were you around in the good old days when the What is Enlightenment Pod was the hottest pod on zaadz, constantly intense with hundreds of posts per day at times with people flaming each other out and….
Ok, you see I am being somewhat ironic about them being the “good old days”. There are reasons that the WIE pod is nearly dead now, and those include all those flame outs that probably drove a lot of people away from zaadz or at least from participation in pods.
And all of this Sturm und Drang, to me, is a beautiful illustration of the problem with thinking one has the answer to enlightenment or truth.
I love it that in Kathy's blog discussions and elsewhere on Gaia now we are moving into a much better space about these things.
Ok, I'm back!
I hope I am not taking us off topic by asking: are we supposed to be aspiring to being enlightened? After a while it became clear that many people didn't even have a knowledge of simply being, as in fully human…
Somehow the balance of self acceptance and life acceptance appears to be something to aspire to firstly… Then perhaps we could take off to higher levels and elevations… such as what Kathy just stated, 'people being more awake and acting fearlessly and fully'… I'd sum it up as having 'Open minds and hearts'.
Enlightenment, if it does exist, is to me like a goal that you pretty much set yourself up to fail at because from all indications it isn't something that you seek at all! In its time it kinds of get to you… if you are open to receiving and willing to let go of your mind controlling you.
Just a thought…
Thanks for accommodating me Kathy. Sherri
Samme, I love it…..this is enlightenment. Perhaps it's as simple as that. So glad you stopped by with that simple offering, which may hold the most truth of all.
Nicole, that's an interesting historical perspective on the What is Enlightenment? question. Interesting that people who were seeking answers to this question would end up flaming out at one another, isn't it? Every time someone flamed out another person could reply, “and that's not enlightenment, and that's not enlightenment” and then another person could come back and say, “yes! the flaming out is part of enlightenment, too.” It's enough to make the head spin!! No wonder people had to leave. It probably just wore everyone out. Or taught more lessons in awareness….. :)
Sherri, I'm going back and forth between washing windows and peeking into Gaia. While washing the windows, I was thinking about your really good questions and thoughts. It's a pleasure to accommodate you, my dear, you bring so much of your authentic self wherever you go. (although, not wanting to make others think they don't bring their own authentic selves….that's what I like about Gaia…..the authenticity that comes through.)
Here's what I was thinking while washing the windows and trying to get rid of the streaks: do you think that maybe there are different paths for different people? Like some people just need to go between self acceptance and life acceptance, and that's what works for them. And others have to go through the seeking enlightenment path until they reach (or don't reach) whatever realizations are most important for their own life.
Was it Jesus who said: there are many paths to my Father…..? A different path for each of us, perhaps?
Another topic involves the question of the search. If we don't do anything at all….might some of us simply tend to stay in the reactive mind with limited options for action? Might we just stay stuck, with limited energy and resources, and just kind of choose to stay mired in the world of suffering? If we don't do something, might we just stay on the couch the rest of our lives, tuning out suffering, trying to cover it up, clicking the TV remote endlessly?
Sorry…..just another list of questions here! Back to washing windows….
one thing that helped me more than anything i suppose, was Adyashanti's simple, yet powerful instruction of, “do not seek truth…seek cherishing illusions”; another friend of mine use to tell me all the time…”subtract it all”…and then Adyashanti again…
“enlightenment is much like a shoe running around all over the place, looking for it's soul.”
iow…just another distraction…
shoe wisdom is the best! mostly though, i have found, that no matter if you are lying on the couch, here on line, washing windows, reading a book, not reading a book…making love,…having an argument…a walk…a swim…be present in that moment…be awake to your experiencing…
i love what janet said…and think it deserves repeating…
- Mystical experience is that yummy, gooey, expansive Oneness, altered state. Anyone can have them and many of us have.
- Enlightenment is being awake and engaging with reality without having to alter it. This is incredibly difficult and few people master it.
i don't believe in any 'enlightenment' per-say anymore…i believe that each of us is born with that very true nature we seek…as we grow up, it becomes conditioned, out of necessity…we could not learn to function in this world otherwise; but then after a certain point, this conditioning begins to smother us…and so we seek for something that we already are, and are just unaware of it…subtract it all…beneath the surface is your own inner joy…filled with the awe of everything…learning to maintain that state, in the face of conditioning…then carrying your true nature with you into your very living experiences, no matter what they are…is very cool…lol
our true nature is not some magical state…although it can 'feel' magical…we are a body, mind, and energy…i have come to realize that our purpose, as humans…is to engage in this reality, meet the world unfolding in the here and now…experience your own inner joy…and when you are confronted with sorrow…feel it…engage…live all of life to the fullest and no matter if you are just washing the windows or the dishes…dance on your own light…tomorrow…you may be called to dance in your darkness…
much love Kathy…i am glad we are finally and officially friends…always, star…
I agree with you about the need to search… but internally is a great place to begin too. It isn't exactly the popular way tho lol It's never been. And that, is another reason why enlightenment seems so fantastic; there's no 'beaten path' to it…
Yeah, we are all pretty much in alignment. I am fond of saying that the desire for enlightenment is simply an indication that it is already in progress. (On some time scale or other.)
But I am also fond of saying such a desire, an effort, a seeking, “practices,” are hardly necessary, maybe not even causally helpful (except as indicators), and I say that “enlightenment” as anyone might define it MUST be as easily available to an illiterate Mongolian shepherd who never heard of the concept or the “goal” as to any yogi in a cave who has meditated for years. Or else the concept is illusory.
And I echo what some have alluded to here: There is no use comparing OR defining, because the shift is DIFFERENT FOR EACH PERSON. God/ess is easily bored, :)) and while experiences might have enough in common for folks to recognize what others say, nonetheless each experience of “enlightenment” (during and after) is unique. That's why we cannot assess anyone else on this matter, nor can they assess us.
Samme, great minds…. You said it in fewer words than Ken Wilber did. The underlined part of this quote from One Taste (which is a comment in my blog) always makes me choke up:
And it's just this, only this. It cannot be any more obvious, which is why it usually takes lifetimes to see. Too close to be grasped, too effortless to be reached, too present to be attained.
Kathy, am delighted you liked my blog.
Oh, one other thought. Yes there appear to be “touch-ins” to some kind of expanded identity/awareness, and there appear to be those who ABIDE in that expansion. We might restrict the term “enlightened” to the latter. But how useful the term is, I dunno. To me, though it is useful to distinguish touch-ins from abiding, but it is also useful to be aware that abiding does not preclude moments or hours of “forgetting,” and of course that is part of the paradoxes of the whole thing we start stumbling into when we get to languaging about it.
Wow, what a yummy discussion here, so many valuable perspectives !!!!
Blessings, OM Bastet
Quietly tip-toeing in and leaving my thoughts on the table…
Pursuing happiness.
Seeking enlightenment.
Searching for love.
These are not nouns to achieve or attain.
They are living verbs…
…tip-toeing back out ;)
I have been blessed with stumbling into the arms of those whose light shines brighter. If it were not for their brightness and their vibration I would have walked on by. I have also had guides walking with me for a time, to keep an eye on me after a ceremony. Whatever I label these sacred ones, they WERE walking in more light and love than what I am used to mingling with from day to day. At each time I was in a process of transformation, open and surrendering to the power of Universe.
Before enlightenment,
the laundry
After enlightenment,
the laundry.
I get that Samme…..lololol. All my paths always wind back through the laundry and the kitchen….lololol
samme…lol…i had forgotten that quote…yeap…and, sometimes the laundry is full of shit!
scrubadubdub…lol
:D to Erin.
Samme, I feel so much pride right now that I have my laundry ‘in control’! I love this feeling of non-necessary action whatsoever! I have NEVER felt this accomplished in my lifetime and this is not a joke at all.
It’s kind of nice to know I am not in any competition with anybody either… just doing what ‘they’ built me for! It worked out that it is a definite help to the Universe and I enjoy doing it completely, but that wasn’t exactly the intention at the beginning. I just wanted to be true to myself!
It’s all connected ultimately. Letting go of expectations is tremendous, like the wise sages always say, and ‘trying’… a LOT of wasted effort.
Again, just my novice experience!
Peace and love. S
Barefooted and naked of breast,
I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden, and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees become alive.
–K'uo-an, Commentary to the Tenth Ox-Herding Picture
Since I was washing windows today the only refrain that keeps going through my head right now is an echo of Samme:
Before enlightenment
wash windows
After enlightenment
wash windows
However, if we take out the phrases “before enlightement” and “after enlightenment” perhaps it just comes down to just washing the windows.
Starlight, Sherri, OM, Erin, Jaguar Goddess, Samme, and Lenore….thanks for all your thoughts and insights. Truly. Keep it coming if you think of more angles to this. It's great reading everyone's perspectives on this. I do appreciate everyone's realizations.
OK all you guys, sorry in advance for this. As many of you know, I always love to spin the “other side of the story” as well. Tonight I was meditating and started feeling some sadness and asked, “what is this all about?” Looking deeper, it just felt like a part of me (or the whole) wanted to express itself somewhat differently.
The process of Voice Dialogue (which I've mentioned many times before) allows the different parts of the self to express themselves, so I asked the sad part what it was feeling and this was what came out:
“I am the part of Kathy who has loved the spiritual search. I still believe in enlightenment. The search has helped make this life worthwhile. It has given us everything. It has made this journey worthwhile. Without the years and years of searching, we would have never found such peace. We would have never found such contentment. We would never have discovered this degree of freedom and flexibility. Even though other parts of Kathy are glad the search is over….I never want to forget what the search has given us. It has given gifts that can't even been expressed. It has opened us to love, to the heart, to hearing the heartbeat of the Mother Earth. It has led us to acting more steadfastly in the world. I am an advocate of the search. I hope all beings follow their hearts….follow their inner guidance….follow their truth. The search has been a beautiful path for us. Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.”
So….that was the message that part of me wanted to add. That part is probably advocating for another blog entitled, “Why we should keep searching for enlightenment.”
Sigh. Sorry, guys. I can't help turning things around to their opposites.
1Vector3 said : The only new thing I might add is attributed to the G. Buddha: “The only barrier to your enlightenment is your belief that you are not already enlightened.”
This really sums it up. I too believe that we are already enlightened. :-)
We slip back into forgetting that we are when we choose to believe
that we're not. It can “seem” difficult to live in this world as an enlighted human
being when we don't think we see very many examples of ONE.
Dare to be an example
~Lisha
Hi,
Nicole referred this blog to me, here are her words ”Eli, do we reach full enlightenment in this life, do you think? we were discussing this over on Kathy's (Centria) blog, did you see that one?”
Let me say LOUD and CLEAR ” I have met enlightened souls, both male and female, not one, but several of them”
If we are discussing “what does enlightenment mean” then it is a totally different issue, and perhaps requires much more space than a comment would permit, but as far as the MAIN topic theme goes, I HAVE, several times, not once.
As regards the question asked to me by Nicole, a counter query would be “What do you understand / implicate / feel / know / understand by the word enlightenment?”
If the word enlightenment is used in the same sense as Moksha/Nirvana/ Liberation etc, then a very simple reply is ” NO, an average person of our level of spiritual evolution can not reach full enlightenment in this life”
Why?
Well, how many of you want to know why?
If I get sufficient feedbacks asking this “Why”, maybe I shall most humbly try to blog the lessons I learned at the feet of these enlightened great master during my journey as a seeker.
Peace, love, and blessings to all
A small humble man,
Eli
ps : please don't ask me what is my definition of “sufficient feedbacks”, ask yourself :)
I think anyone truly enlightened would not be here on earth but would have moved on to the next dimension, we are all very human here on earth, no one person superior to another, we can all learn from each other and from the animals, and all that is, That spark of the divine spirit can shine from what might appear the most unlikely looking sources, often from the areas that many people avoid because they feel superior
ONE has met ENLIGHTENED BEING.
Who is asking
And who is responding
And who is enjoying all this?
Thank you Kathy, for washing those windows.
Eli, already I feel like I have a better grasp of your view by what you say, but I for one am very interested in reading your blog, should you wish to write it. Thanks so much! from another fellow seeker - hugs
So many more interesting thoughts and realizations.
~Lisha, thanks for your perspective. You know what sentence jumped out the most in your contribution? Dare to be an example. If a being knows he/she is enlightened…..the example of that Knowing should shine forth in the world. Another Jesus quote comes to mind, “And ye shall know them by their fruits.”
Eli, I was just wondering yesterday if anyone would unequivocally state that they had met enlightened beings. (beyond a belief or knowing that we are All of One, and all enlightened if we but recognize that.) It's interesting that you have met several, both male and female. Reading your post, it also occurs that we have talked about many aspects of enlightenment in this discussion, and it might have been helpful to keep the discussion limited to certain points….but it's been fascinating to hear all the different thoughts. Please send me an email or shout-out when and if you write more on this topic. And thanks to Nicole for sending you on over. Nicole, I love this ripple-effect on Gaia.
Zephyr, I have wondered that myself. If one was truly enlightened, might they just move on from the earth plane? I've heard some people choose to stay until all other beings experience enlightenment, but who knows?
Meenakshi, those windows tend to get mighty dirty! Got to keep them washed, if we want to see clearly…. :) P.S. love your koan. Who indeed?
Daniel, I thank you also for stopping by to share. There is so much you contributed, but this thought truly resonated: The vast majority of so called enlightened beings are merely mistics who reach a certain level and decide to call themselves enlightened. There's many of us who have attained certain levels of realization, and there's many who are wise or experience degrees or levels of awareness. Is it possible for us, as human beings looking at another person, to even determine if another human being is god-realized, assuming that the state even exists? How many people could have looked at Jesus or Buddha and truly known that this man was enlightened? How many of us can look at Adyashanti or Byron Katie or Eckhart Tolle and really KNOW? How many of us can even know if we are really enlightened or not? (oops, backing out of that last question…..I am assuming we would KNOW if we were enlightened.) Anyway, these are just more questions arising in this moment. Thanks again for stopping by and adding to the discussion.
Your blog is very wise indeed. Thanks for sharing your insight, and adding a smile to my day!
Kathy,
I have a very brief blog Liberation (Moksha) - the Hindu concept Posted on Aug 22nd, 2008. Perhaps you might like to read it.
Blessings,
Eli
Centria, I think you are right we cannot know others truths only our own inner truth and there are many different paths, who are we to judge? Everyone here seems to be thinking from I - not from the perspective of we, love and unity. However for all of humanity to progress together into unity we first each need to find our own inner peace and acceptance of interdependence and unity, all that is. First we must progress to peace, that will be our springboard to spiritual advancement for us all. Until we can live together in peace and harmony, how can we hope to find enlightenment ?.. Also , I am not so sure we simply arrive, life in the universe is progress not stagnation. When we are all connected in love and oneness, who knows what we might achieve together?
oh that was a long way down
the page
but
are you absolutely sure ?
Thank you, Phoenix, for stopping by and reading and enjoying all of these offerings by so many people. Glad it provided a smile.
Eli, I will check out your link and read what you posted earlier this month concerning Liberation. Thanks for sharing that with all of us.
Zephyr….great points. Especially this: I am not so sure we simply arrive, life in the universe is progress not stagnation. Very true observation. I am also fascinated with the dynamics of expression, whether we use the term “we” or “I” when discussing concepts such as enlightenment. I so often shy away from using the pronoun “we” when discussing some of these issues. It so often sounds like when using the term “we” that I'm trying to claim that my viewpoint is the only way; attatching a “we” to a multi-faceted discussion. Look at all of these opinions just on this page! How could I use the term “we”? But you are so right in pointing towards that “we” perspective is very vital. And I like this: for all of humanity to progress together into unity we first each need to find our own inner peace and acceptance of interdependence and unity, all that is.
Daniel, thanks for your additional comments, as well. Enlightenment must come from intense devotion, not a decision that you're already there. That is a definitive possibility. Part of me agrees with it; the other part agrees with its opposite. I am (sorry) not very logical much of the time. I also like what you say about fundamentalism, and to question everything that doesn't make sense. Thank you again for offering your view.
Yosartdeyama, I am not sure about anything except it IS a long way down the page! :)
Seems like people keep sneaking in between the radar. I'm off the computer now to enjoy the rest of this beautiful Labor Day Sunday…..enjoy the continued conversation, friends, and see you tomorrow!
and scolling that long way down i had to not forget to tell you that we are enlightened because the whole world is this and it's like light, existance is all about us, we are it too
if you wish
)
Many individuals believe that enlightenment is a completed state of being, but it is not. It is a PROCESS. 'All That Is' does not understand 'All That Is', so it expresses itself in as many ways as possible in an effort to do.
Human Beings and ALL Beings for that matter are constantly evolving, changing and growing. We are never and never will be a complete and finished product. Consciousness is no different.
As conscious Beings we can achieve enlightened states of Being. We can widen our awareness to include so much more than what we think and believe ourselves to be, but we never understand fully whom and what we are.
- Mark -
Daniel, you are right maybe what I should have said, what i really mean is no one else has mentioned it from a We perspective. You see God as logic, I see God as Love powering a cosmic intelligence If you look at life with logic, we are all interdependent, who is an island? How do you apply logic without making some judgements? Like you Daniel I have used logic to come to conclusions regarding my own beliefs, but love and compassion were what brought me closer to oneness, unity and the intelligence behind creation , we can however apply love and compassion without making judgements. There are many valuable and interesting contributions in this thread, which come together to make somethig greater than any one of us individually That is a taste of what we can achieve together instead of from one perspective, if we are prepared to share and learn from one another.
Centria, thank you for your appreciation of my puny effort to contribute to the thread and for not being judgemental. I truly appreciate yours and others contributions here too, I have no need to be right, only to love, learn and grow.
I read this with some interest as I came here to Gaia only a short time ago claiming I was enlightened…LOL! I even spent time in responding to the whole notion of it in Beyond Enlightenment initially when I came on board.
After a little gander around here and further analysis it is a clear I am far from it. I have tweaked my profile since this revelation! However I continue to have a few head cramps with this term and can't get it to flow. The term is subjective for me. I realized I engaged this word enlightenment via my own cultural relativity. Although admitting that I think I am still wondering where do we inject relativity in this discussion, specifically cultural relativity. I don't know if there is Universal acceptance of enlightenment or its definition, just like the word God…is it not all subjective or relative?
So who's to say…
Nonetheless, I concluded, I have no clue what enlightenment is, I am full of BS and actually suffer a flinch with the word as a result of a teacher. Her goal in life was to “enlighten me” and this was not a kind offer. I am not sure but I think I am also witnessing this human thing we do sometimes, “I've got it and you don't” blustering about…I could be wrong.
Most importantly I will never claim it again. I pathetically don't have the slightest discipline to ever achieve it. Can I live enlightened…honestly…NO…I enjoy life's “no, no's” way too much and turn my eye and ear far too often. One does not need to be enlightend to be a grand person…Oh and I have absolutes which I think get in the way…but this is all relative or subjective? Have I met one? I wanted them to be, I thought they were but it turned they were human just like me.
I am not giving up hope on it either or myself.
Have to agree with Ladybear re: Dalai Lama and Brian Johnson. Both at the very least fully actualising human beings, which is my idea of evolved.
Cool.
Sherri
Kathy, I'm liking this discussion at least as much as many similar discussions in the What is Enlightenment? Group and I'd like to add this blog+comments to the Collective Wisdom: The Library for Community Threads Group. Do you or does anyone here object to that?
I think even God Herself might like to see it there, haha.
Blessings, OM Bastet
Daniel, I agree we need to live what we believe and not be hypocritical, you can see that is what I aspire to on my profile If we love the creator of course we try to emulate that kind of love with a passion. We are human, not yet fully enlightened and it behoves us to realise others too are doing their very best. Om Bastet, I like that this may be added to Collective Wisdom, together we contribute and add to the whole as we encourage each other to grow in love and spirit
Yosartdeyama, glad you came back and scrolled down a second time to share your realization. :)
Marky Mark, I really do resonate with it being a process. That feels right. Back to the old saying that it's the journey that counts, not the destination.
Daniel, thanks again for coming back and offering more of your perspectives….
Zephyr, no efforts are puny efforts! :) If I believe anything, it's that we need every voice and that enlightenment (or Oneness) has something to do with allowing and honoring or “sitting with” the multitude of voices which come up. Not quite sure how that works, but it's something I've been attempting to give space in my life. Do keep sharing!
Denim! Your post is fascinating because it provides us with another kaleidescope view of this thing called Enlightenment. So you claimed it, and then you discovered differently. Here is another question that is arising right now….a lot of people think enlightenment is a state without attachments, negativity and such…..part of me is suspicious that enlightenment is simply such a lofty state. Maybe it's somehow a state that includes the everyday passions of living? But anyway, you don't sound like someone is full of BS to me. You sound like you gained some really wisdom through this whole journey. And you sound pretty humble about it…..
Hi Ladybear and Sherri….isn't it interesting in this thread how everyone keeps going from one spectrum of “yes” about enlightenment to “no” about enlightenment. And how we keep tossing about dozens of discussions about what enlightenment is. For some reason I haven't read or listened deeply to what the Dalai Lama offers (don't know why, particularly) and I don't know much about Brian Johnson either. Although anyone with the vision to form Zaadz/Gaia must be a pretty special guy! And whenever anyone talks about him they get a certain note in their voice which indicates what a precious person he is. You are providing me some inspiration to look into these guys some more….
Daniel (hello again) thanks for adding more thoughts to the mix. I like “Judge not for as you judge so shall you be judged.” and another sentence (although I am taking this all out of order and context): And as for enlightenment, it is oneness with God. It sounds like you resonate strongly with logic as part of this journey to enlightenment, although the heart (devotion) is also present.
OM, I'm sure god herself wouldn't mind to the addition of these insights into the Collective Wisdom Thread. Unless there's any part of her in these comments that disagrees? smiling….
Zephyr, yes!, let's encourage all of us to grow in love and spirit. Blessings, all.
May I direct you to a couple recent learnings for me?
The first is the Dalai Lama in Aspen. I had never seen him in action till that time. Was transforming for me as you will see in my comments. Thanks to Dawn [synonymforlight] for this.
The second is the mailing I received synchronistically from Brian Johnson's new company think Arete this morning, entitled 'Serve'.
Simply put, I 'get' these guys; they are living this thing flat out. And better yet, they are not making a big deal about it. 'Just' attempting to live up to their potential.
I can dig that.
Thanks for hosting my learnings in your blog!
Peace and love. Sherri
enlightenment is imposible!! :) there is no “you” to get to a better place. Right now we are bieng… that is it. How can you being anymore? How can a fish become wetter by practicing a path. Follow the Dalai lama around and find he eats, burps, urinates and goes through the illusions of life as we do.
See the sky and know you are it… and all else is just appearances of That on That.
Quote ”I believe the Buddha's teachings have been changed and missenterpreted just as other masters such as Jesus' and prophet Muhammad. It's really a shame that this happens. Then you have all these fundamentalists parroting it all and before you know it, falsehood is practically universal. Most unfortunate.” Unquote
This is the natural process, as discussed in the blog Dynamics of Ethical Survival
Dear friends, Let's use this blog space as a forum to offer differing viewpoints and perceptions on enlightenment, without ridiculing or causing shame, or making others feel like their thoughts or beliefs are somehow wrong. If Oneness is to be a possibility, let's find a space where all views can be heard. They don't need to be right or wrong, but can these competing views exist without being challenged? Let's just sit with the differing views, as in meditation or prayer, and allow a perhaps opposing viewpoint to have validity, without necessarily rejecting or embracing it.
Let's let all others offer their views on Enlightenment. The Native Americans pass an eagle feather as each person speaks, and allows the sacredness of that experience and expression to be paramount. The next person can speak from their heart, but doesn't turn and point at the last person and argues with what was said.
I don't want people to be afraid to offer differing viewpoints here, afraid that they will be shamed or ridiculed. That is so important….that we're not afraid to speak our truths. If anyone wants to take up a personal argument with another viewpoint, how about email them privately?
If we start arguing about enlightenment, we might as well all go back to square one….
Sherri, I will look up those links, thank you!
Michael, you have been one of my many teachers and I deeply respect “you”….whoever “you” might be. smiling….
Daniel, thanks again for contributing. and Eli, that link you mentioned looks interesting; will try to check it out.
Thank you, all.
look deeply to see if daniel exists? Investigate for yourself
As long as there is a belief in an “i”i it will be a profound truth “you” know
and… Once I did get hit by a car, flew over another car and landed on the street. During the process there was no me, just movement and energy happening quickly through me…that is the way it felt and was known.
Investigate or not .. its not your decision :)
Daniel.. we are speaking and pointing to the same thing.. just different words. Words as markers as space. We are all space, the I, you, That, God. etc.. is the embodiment of space. So at times there is Mike, but also this Mike is the Essense of All.
I am the wave and the ocean both.
But if I look deeply at the wave.. I see the ocean.:)
I have been loosely following this blog for the last few days wondering and waiting to see if I would have any thoughts to share and what thoughts would be shared that would make me sit up a little taller and ponder things. Hows that for a long run-on sentence!
I have to say that I am dismayed by the tone of the most recent offerings. I am a strong proponent of mutual respect and I believe that it is possible to disagree with someone without challenging their beliefs and telling them they are wrong. I do not know Michael or Daniel and I am barely getting to know Centria and I hope she will not be bothered by my sharing these thoughts in her blog.
Daniel, how can you so blatantly tell Michael that what he is saying is wrong in every way? I mean, ok, I know how you can say it, but how can you KNOW or BELIEVE that? We all travel the path that is layed out before us, co-creating it with every step we take. I wonder if you are here to glean anything new, to pick up on those little nuances that spark thought, that spark feeling and work to create growth and development within? Or are you hear to simply pontificate, to shout out your views and tell those that discagree that they are WRONG, just wrong!
I am sure that there are some very insightful statements within your posts however I could not find them from being so turned off by the judgements being made alongside them.
If I am out of place in speaking my mind on this then I will have to ponder that and if an apology is warranted I will sincerely offer it.
Now getting back to enlightnenment, I guess the only thing I would like to say is that from my perspective logic has very little place in the process of enlightment. Logic is a human construct that is part of the human existence. Enlightenment is the process of ascending from our human-ness and fully realizing/joining the divinity which is every being's rightful home.
In My Humble Opinion.
Mimi
OM Bastet…Thank you for pointing out the What is Enlightenment? Group, I obviously should have started here…LOL…
Regards
Daniel… there is no right or wrong (smile)…this is so hard to descibe in words.. one day you will know or not and that is a place in One too..all strokes of the keys here typing all of this blog from eveyONE.. is the expression of Being, One, God.. what can ever be outside of it… and if something is outside of IT, then what is it…so it cant be wrong. or right. … go out in to space and tell me where is up and down. .. Investigate as mentioned earlier and see… the wave is the ocean
Alchemystic… love your energy … as it is Oneness understanding itself too :)
and see even the illusion of disagreement and frustration is the One too expressing:) Its inescapable
Hi everyone. this has been the MOST interesting couple of days. I feel like everything that has been said here has helped propel me into some deeper awareness. (and not always comfortable awareness.)
This is what I've been thinking and wondering. There is this state of Oneness and/or Enlightenment. And within this “state” (and I am wrong, I know, even calling it a “state”) there are different energies.
So if there is judgment, there is acceptance. If there is tolerance, there is also intolerance. There is always both/and. So many of us (me included) are all for honoring the Whole, the All, Everything. And yet what happens when there is intolerance or judgment of the All? What do we do then? How do we respond? Do we cut out part of the equation? And what if the judgment or intolerance begins to overshadow the All?
I do believe there's often a shadow side to many of our exchanges as human beings that needs to be recognized. If we are too closely identified to one awareness, one viewpoint….the opposite will often sneak in (to our dismay and indignation!) and demand recognition.
Mimi, thank you for expressing what many of us have perhaps been feeling. I am not at all bothered. In fact, I am honored that you had the courage to speak.
And Michael, your energy feels so soothing that it brought tears to my eyes. Thanks you.
I've asked Daniel to respond to any of you via email if he wants to continue the discussion, so he may choose to contribute to the dialogue privately, if he wishes.
Whew….lots to think about, lots to ponder, another dimension of awareness to allow….every single day something to learn! I am really grateful to everyone here for the continued learning…..
sorry to tag on only just got round to reading and felt moved
Beautiful words, very meaningful, but, for me the part that stands out was your daughters realization about changing mood, I concur, it's all about change that works for the individual, but, like in the Obama campaign, change there effects many people, so it must be something about change that works for an individual and sometimes for a collective, or collective of collectives, not everything or everyone is the same, the devils in the detail, as far as enlightenment…who know's, I expect it's completely personal for everyone and must equate to personal autonomy and satisfaction in someway, it's something I try not to dwell on, but, attempt to attain, unsuccessfully for myself, it's one of those words some profess to hold meaning for, live and let live is all part of the harmony I suppose…thanks
be attentive to this what you mean while you feel, sense while you sit while you write, what else is there beside words, what is your message and who is addressing who
just watch eckhart tolle on the oprah series i entered..or others entered here…about being in the now …and the new earth series on oprahs page…he exudes spiritual awareness and has no ego in it at al…
another one i feel was total enlightment was KRISHNAmurti who i had the privilege of seeing in switzerland open air discourse…
its effortless with these people…and it shows…not thru their words (tho they know what they are saying) as much as by their very BEING…
i am sure Jesus and other avatars had that quality as well…
i agree (living in nyc) that it is rare to see…feel…but unmistakable when you do…it pays to be open to it..by staying present and keeping your heart open…and your thoughts positive..
Thanks goddess Centria. I got my blogs crossed….xo
I dood it. Here is the link to the entry of this blog+comments into the Collective Wisdom Library of Community Threads.
Anyone is welcome to go there, and join, and talk about the thread itself. Talking within the content of the thread of course remains here.
Thank you all !!!!
Blessings, OM Bastet
Pan, hello, thanks for reading and offering your wisdom as well. At this point I especially like your line who know's, I expect it's completely personal for everyone and must equate to personal autonomy and satisfaction in someway. Excellent summary!
Yosyama, indeed, you are so right. And in that witnessing we may see who is addressing who. That is wise advice for us…
leeloo3, I have read much by Eckhart Tolle and respect much of what he has to say. BEING in the moment seems to be IT. Thank you for stopping by to add your realizations. Your open heart shines through.
Jaguar Goddess, in a conversation about Enlightenment, perhaps no posting is irrelevant! smiling, dear friend….
OM, thanks again for adding this thread to the Collective Wisdom Library. There is much wisdom here. Have so appreciated everyone for commenting and offering their truths, knowings, thoughts, processes.
I have met the Dalai Lama three times (in two private and one public audience) when I was a teenager and he came closest to what I would refer to as an enlightened human being. He has an extremely strong aura of peacefulness or better yet - peace of mind around himself. While at the same time he is so human, he is cheerful and he laughs. And his whole being is compassion. He is one of the most wonderful persons I have met and even though these meetings lie up to 17 years back, they have left a very deep impression and imprint in me.
Jenny, that's cool you met the Dalai Lama not once but three times. When I've seen him on TV or in a magazine he does seem to exude peacefulness or calmness….and joy. I can see how he would leave a very deep impression on a person.
Yeah, I was very lucky. I lived in the same town he has his residence in so I actually saw him quite often when he held teachings, at Tibetan dances or the opera (TIPA), on Uprising Day rallyes etc. He's a great man! At one private audience, I was 16 back then and had crazy pink-green-blue hair, he didn't stop giggling and touching my hair because he thought it was so funny. :))
Centria!
Please!!!!!… We have all met enlightened people. They are with us everywhere. They are next to us in line at the store, they are in conversations with us every day. Your blog makes me very sad. You are an enlightened spiritual warrior!, everyone here is in some way or another. Why do we keep pushing this farther and farther away from ourselves…. Why do we want/demand perfection to be the enlightened person? JEsus sitting on a cloud far away - the dominator/victim religions want you to believe that you will never get it so they can control you!!!! Wake up….It's not that far away, just a breath… destroy the reflection in the mirror…. stay at your center! Grover Horned Antelope, one of my teachers, was very enlightened, he was also very human. The Dali Lama is a humble monk and enlightened and very human.
“So the first time someone opens his or her mouth to begin explaining enlightenment…..whatever is coming forth is not enlightenment. ” - BS! Humility!
Silly that you strive for at the same time push away the very same thing…. Bad form! Kill the separation. Be humble, but don't deny…… A warrior's humility is realizing all are equal in spirit and enlightenment.
Be enlightened as you are! BE!
Donbear
ha ha ha ha love this Don bear. Yes… find me someone not enlightened (impossible) …and i wonder then what are they if they are not Being..
and so the puddle on the ocean wonders if its part of the sea :) ha ha ha
Yeah, Don Bear! I was hoping we'd hear this viewpoint, as well. So glad you offered it. We've had so many kaliedescope views of enlightenment here….from so many different people. I actually like resonating with ALL of these views, with finding the different parts of the Self which is expressing its personal truths in different ways and in different moments. (although the hardest one to resonate with might be an insisting of one point of view; that one seems the most challenging still.) In the One that we are, in the All that we are, all we need to do is shift our assemblage point a little bit and we can resonate with most viewpoints including the Knowing that we ARE the ocean, the puddle and we are enlightened right this very moment.
So very very glad you stopped by to share this and Michael too. Yes, Be enlightened as you are! BE! Amen. :)
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyy Centriaaaaaaa!!! Just popping in this morning with papertowels for those windows…my tongue is at it's licking limit wow!!! hehehe
well apart from former comment, i guess i would only add the below. article i saw today …..which i am afraid leaves the question a little…but is still central to the issue…
enlightenment for me is free of the programming and free to chose joy…but who knows?
http://www.illuminatedmind.net/2008/08/26/meaning-of-life-enlightenment/
Well it has been one heck of a busy week since I last weighed in with my thoughts on this question. Don Bear, I have no idea who you are and I think I love you! I love your comment here and I love that it is a different viewpoint. I have been coming home from work each night this week wanting to comment and being too tired to do anything other than read or look at the pages here on Gaia. I feel that the hesitation for people to see the enlightenment in others and especially themselves is coming from a place of self consciousness. Being fearful that in owning their own enlightenment/divinity that they will somehow come off as ego driven or even just plain silly. If I can easily see the enlightenment in you then what is to stop me from seeing the enlightenment within myself? And how does one step into that space and move from that space and still get the dishes done, the kids to school, and make the boss at work happy?
I feel that to position enlightenment as a destination at the end of a journey, and/or to make it something that is attainable only in death is old paradigm. We are all pretty much comfortable with talking about how we carry the spark of God within us, we have accepted that God/faith/spirituality is not external and true answers can easily be found by going within. Why can't we include enlightenment in that equation?
I know FOR SURE that I have enlightened moments. Some moments are longer than others. In the interest of full disclosure I STILL will flip off a rude driver on the freeway if their crazy driving is potentially harmful. Those moments are not so enlightened. Those moments do not negate the enlightened moments. For me the key is to extend the length of the enlightened moments and to have fewer of the not so much moments.
I also know FOR SURE that every person participating in this blog has enlightened moments. Most of y'all know each other so now you can change your answers to “Yes.”
The AlcheMystic has spoken.
(I also know FOR SURE that most of you don't really know me so yes, that final line was meant to be funny.)
lol
Cool.
Being human. Me like.
Blessings to you! S
Kathy, I know what you mean about the one view, and that's what I'm working on hardest now, to love that part of myself that enjoys being right too much and wants to think I have the truth, so that I can better love others who are focussed on their own one view.
DonBear, I love you too and always appreciate your input. The reason, to me, why the What is Enlightment group became a huge massive conflict of shouting voices and eventually pretty much died off is that there are so many definitions of enlightenment and many of us are very deeply attached to our understanding.
So in a sense we are all enlightened and in another sense we are all beginners, becoming enlightened but feeling far from our goal, and so on, and so on…
This is the blog discussion that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends :)
Yes I have…many…here's one of my favorites…
http://www.charitywater.org/birthdays/livedrill.htm
thank u bluewater for that, i sent it to the far corners of gaia!
kathy,
i would like to add something again:-)) what you said here…HIT THE MARK (HEART)…
One of the continued joys in my life has been the ceasing of seeking enlightenment. (Some of you may recall this blog from a few months ago.) It is such a relief. Just to be, to express, to learn, to share, to gain new awarenesses every day! Oh the relief. Every day some new realization. And that's enough. More than enough.
I have started doing (being) that by letting go of any goals and expectations and struggling to cleanse my field etc….tho i am watching myself and seeing any reactiveness i have to life and the universe….its a different thang….I give my thanks and gratitude to eckhart tolle from the power of now book and new earth book - and his new earth series of vids with oprah which i and others posted here but pls google)– he says the below as you do over and over…
this thread also inspired me to think it would be nice to share stories, vids, and blogs under the title “new earth living/being” about those who we find thru the internet like bluewater here…that do this…higher oneness consciousness thru action or being…
what i love to call LIVING LA VIDA LOCA (THE EASY LIFE)..OR 10D (dimensional) living…the oneness principle…- and ducks are my symbol….as in michael bedard's ducks…google that…for we take ourselves and all this waaaaaaaaaay too siriusly…joy and love of the moment and childlike essence comes straight from the heart….light and bubbly.. just my feeling….debra
http://www.mbedard.com/Scripts/default.asp
Kathy (aka centrino)
and all you FAB starseed souls, i just created thanks to all your inspiring comments! a new group……which i will add to along with my blog…so that it may serve to be a repository of all those who inspire us to see that oneness is achievable or atleast a new way of living = i tittled it after eckhart's new earth…tho i was tempted to call it “living la vida loca”
i hope to use all my immaturity and childess-ness such as bedard ducks, children, dolphons- also humor etc…to keep it grounded in the sky….
http://3ducks.gaia.com/pods/add
please thow in this pot of gold anything that makes you smile, - light and laughter,
gratefully debra
Hi friends–
This is amazing that the comments keep going on and on! You know, one of the reasons I wrote this blog is because I noticed many comments about enlightenment on various blogs around Gaia. Some people seemed to be critical of other people who claimed enlightenment; others were claiming enlightenment. It seemed to be a topic that interested many. The time felt ripe to discuss it.
I could have actually written this blog from many different viewpoints. I could have said that we're all enlightened. Part of the All that is Me believes this. In fact, if you read many of my previous blogs, you will see that angle coming forth. Another part of the All that is Me believes the opposite. There is room for so many viewpoints, so I threw out the initial thoughts and just watched in awe and amazement as all of you came in to share your own thoughts and experiences and beliefs and Knowings and realizations.
Belief is no longer that important to me. I believe in action, in living what we might perceive enlightenment to be. If we're not living it, or attempting to live it, of what use are our words? (oh, never mind, I could argue the opposite of that too! :) )
It's been interesting to watch the parts of all of us that believe that we're enlightened come forth. And then the parts that believe we'll never claim the word enlightenment. And then parts that claim our way is in the primary way. And then parts that believe there's many answers. So many parts!
That's why I feel humble and yet proud to see all of us, with all of our realizations, shining here as a multi-faceted diamond of awareness.
Thank you everyone who joined in this discussion again over the weekend: Elisa, TheAlechemystic (who has spoken! :)) Sherri, Nicole, Janie and Debra. Hope I listed everybody! Love, the centrino
Who is Enlightened?
Who is The Infidel?
Can you call yourself by these names?
No Enlightened person would call themself “Enlightened”
much like Infidel is a name you would never call yourself.
Are you Perfect? or A Jerk? or a Perfect Jerk?
I believe “Enlightened” is an honorific one assigns to another out of respect.
These are just labels, words on a page, opinions we have.
You have to do it. Someone may notice and call you that name. Either one. Or others….
Thank you, Ms. Mimi. I like your sentence: These are just labels, words on a page, opinions we have. Just words. It's so much more revealing to go beyond the words, to move past the labels. Thank you again……
Thank you, Kathy!
I think the problem, first, is our accepted definition of 'enlightenment.' It does not make a rarefied entity.
…and I also agree: “those who know, do not say. And those who say, do not know.”
…but I, too, spend time with grand people who make me certain that there could be not greater value in a person.
love and blessings,
CG
CG, yes it does come down to challenges of definition. But I especially like your last sentence: but I, too, spend time with grand people who make me certain that there could be not greater value in a person. Thank you!
If you are in the presence of someone who is Enlightened, you may recognize it/them.
The secret is not to discuss it with anyone - words fail. It is something to be experienced.
Discussion leads to inadequacy of words, misunderstanding, arguing about if it's This or That or Something Else.
And most everything is Something Else.
Excellent, Mimi! :)
I shall be guffawing all day. I am not sure I have ever read any higher wisdom whatsoever, mimi, than this one line which can be grokked even out of context:
…most everything is Something Else.
Very Zen !!
And your entire comment, very very wise, I resonate highly. Beautifully said.
OM
no thing is nothing
nothing is no thing.
some things are nothing
nothing is something.
Oh Samme, run that one right over and drop it onto jeepdog's recent blog about Nada. It's purrrrrfect for there !!!
LOL !!!
OM Bastet
Samme….great wisdom! (and you could say, “It was nothing.” lol!) OM, I just peeked at Jeepdog's blog about Nada….wonderful…..
Blessings. :)
Hi, everyone! : )
I may have missed it, but I see an extensive discussion about enlightenment and spirituality and not one reference to Jed McKenna. :o
Spiritual awakening, enlightenment, is about only one thing - TRUTH!!!
But, if you don't believe me (why in the world would you), then read Jed and figure it all out for yourself. Here is a great quote from McKenna I'd like to share (about spiritual teachings). It might cause a slight reaction, but, I think it is thought provoking and will give you a flavor for where McKenna might take you:
“Here's a simple test. If it's soothing or comforting, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy; if it's about getting into pleasant emotional or mental states; if it's about peace, love, tranquility, silence or bliss; if it's about a brighter future or a better tomorrow; if it makes you feel good about yourself or boosts your self-esteem, tells you you're okay, tells you everything's just fine the way it is; if it offers to improve, benefit or elevate you, or if it suggests that someone else is better or above you; if it's about belief or faith or worship; if it raises or alters consciousness; if it combats stress or deepens relaxation, or if it's therapeutic or healing, or if it promises happiness or relief from unhappiness, if it's about any of these or similar things, then it's not about waking up. Then it's about living in the dreamstate, not smashing out of it.
On the other hand, if it feels like you're being skinned alive, if it feels like a prolonged evisceration, if you feel your identity unraveling, if it twists you up physically and drains your health and derails your life, if you feel love dying inside you, if it seems like death would be better, then it's probably the process of awakening. That, or a helluva case of gas. ”
:o
Wahoooooo!!!
Hi, again!
Jed McKenna really messes with your brain. So, if that didn't send you running to a yoga studio, then here is one more sampling of Jed (from the book Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing):
I like happiness as much as the next guy, but it's not happiness that sends one in search of truth. It's rabid, feverish, clawing madness to stop being a lie, regardless of price, come heaven or hell. This isn't about higher consciousness or self-discovery or heaven on earth. This is about blood-caked swords and Buddha's rotting head and self-immolation, and anyone who says otherwise is selling something they don't have.
The emperor has no clothes, and sooner or later everyone is going to see what's staring them right in the face. When that happens, perhaps, there will be a major shift-a mass exodus away from the complexity and futility of all spiritual teachings. An exodus not outward toward Japan or India or Tibet, but inward, toward the self-toward self-reliance, toward self-determination, toward a common sense approach to figuring out just what the hell's going on around here. A wiping of the slate. A fresh start. Sincere, intelligent people dispensing with the past and beginning anew. Beginning by asking themselves, “Okay, where are we? What do we know for sure? What do we know that's true?”
I'm not relevant to anyone's search. I'm just a finger pointing at the moon. There's nothing to be learned from the finger. Everybody's eager to find a distraction from the real work of waking up, but that's all it is, a distraction.
Your moments of blackest despair are really your most honest moments-your most lucid moments. That's when you're seeing without your protective lenses. That's when you pull back the curtain and see things as they are.
Self-realization isn't about more, it's about less. The only construction required for awakening is that which facilitates demolition.
If I were to reduce this book and my teachings to their essence, I would say it all comes down to nothing more than this: Think for yourself and figure out what's true. That's it. Ask yourself what's true until you know. Everything else in this book, everything else I have to say on the subject, turns on that center.
I never thought of waking up as a spiritual pursuit, I just wanted to get to the truth. Looking back, I can see where I might have used the word “infinity” in a koan-like manner; kind of a Western version of mu. Infinity is beautiful; it destroys everything it touches. It annihilates all concepts, all beliefs, all sense of self. No teacher, teaching, book or practice could ever be as effective as simply allowing the thought of infinity to slowly devour you.
“Spiritual awakening,” I continue, “is about discovering what's true. Anything that's not about getting to the truth must be discarded. Truth isn't about knowing things-you already know too much. It's about un knowing. It's not about becoming true, it's about un becoming false so that all that's left is truth. If you want to become a priest or a lama or a rabbi or a theologian, then there's a lot to learn-tons and tons. But if you want to figure out what's true, then it's a whole different process and the last thing you need is more knowledge.”
Hi Michael,
I clicked the Amazon link and read the reveiws of this book. It looks like it might be right up my alley. I also tried to look at your profile so I would have a fuller view of the person (you) to whom I would be posing my question. Alas I was not able to view your profile and I respect that. You commented twice on this topic of enlightenment with somewhat lengthy passages from the book. What I am more interested in knowing is how this book, this information, this ONE aspect of someone elses truth impacted you! You commented with such passion and it left me curious to know in what ways Jed Mc Kenna inspired you.
Namaste,
Mimi
Hi, Mimi,
Great question!
McKenna has not actually inspired me at all. : o
For a variety of reasons, I was already heading down a path of de-construction…primarily de-construction of the image I had built up of myself and who I am. Although I felt very strongly about this path, I was not necessarily clear on the process or how I would accomplish this. Some basic things came to mind - essentially setting off an atom bomb in my life. About the same time I was fleshing out the details of what this might look like, I went hiking with a friend and described what I was planning. My friend mentioned Jed McKenna's book, so I immediately ordered a copy. I devoured the book. Jed really messes with your brain, and I had some of the most fantastic thoughts. After having read McKenna's first book, I immediately knew what my new path would be all about - unlearning and breaking out of the shell I have created for myself. Voraciously pursuing truth - not my truth or someone else's truth - but Truth with a capital T. This is the only kind of truth that really exists.
Jed is very blunt in his book - don't accept anything in his book as truth. He really recommends only one thing - Do. The. Work. Get to the truth on your own. Genius!!!
It was great chatting with you, Mimi. If you are still interested, I have unlocked my profile so you can check it out.
Michael : )
Thanks, Michael, for adding Jed McKenna's approach to this discussion. And your own! I like what you say about McKenna's beliefs….and breaking out of the shell of one's preconceptions and thoughts and personality to discover the Truth which resides in each of us. It's also interesting that “setting off an atom bomb” in one's life is an approach that worked for you. I am wondering if something as gentle as a butterfly landing on one's arm might awaken another? My path seems to have included both: deconstruction and simple realization of what was there all along, seemingly covered up. I suppose that the deconstruction simply has allowed you to see that…?
And Mimi, thank you for stopping by & sharing again. I liked how you were interested in finding out more about Michael in reference to what he's shared.
I think ole Jed's got it right.
It's not about thinking or feeling of knowing stuff.
It's bare naked. no—
…nakeder
Hi, Centria,
Let's split hairs (or atoms - ha-ha!). : )
Setting off an atom bomb in my life was just a metaphor I liked to use about my plans for the very near future, including things like quitting my career, selling my house, selling my stuff, giving myself the space and time I needed to heal and re-connect with who I really am. Radical stuff to some but in no ways destructive. To me, more than anything, the metaphor implied immediate and drastic change. Perhaps not a pill everyone can swallow, but I did not feel like waiting another 10 or 20 or 30 years to figure myself out (or to just get on this path).
When I read Jed McKenna, I realized that what I was really trying to do was shed layers of stuff my ego had added to my image of self. I was trying to uncover what is true, both about myself and the world around me. I do not have the goal of enlightenment, but, if I happen to truly awaken from this dream, I would not complain.
Perhaps someone in the history of the universe has awaken and become enlightened by “something as gentle as a butterfly landing on one's arm”. I don't know, and I am not aware of anyone who has had this experience, but perhaps it has happened.
Jed says enlightenment “is about blood-caked swords and Buddha's rotting head and self-immolation, and anyone who says otherwise is selling something they don't have.” I don't know if this is true either, but I am prepared to find out.
The issue I see is that most people prepare for the butterfly experience and expect something to happen or change. I think this is naive and perhaps a little childlike. If you want to transcend your dreamstate, wake up, or just be a really cool person, I'd suggest you prepare for self-immolation, and, if you happen to wake up after the kiss of a butterfly, then you should consider yourself one of the fortunate few (or the fortunate one). But, don't believe me or Jed or anyone else - go figure it out for yourself. The clock is ticking.
This is fun. Who wants to go deeper? : )
Oh, I don't need to split hairs or atoms, Michael. Thank you for offering your truth. It will be interesting to see what you discover as you go deeper, as you figure it out for yourself. (or maybe you already have?) It sounds like you're on the journey of a lifetime, and that you have much to share with others. Blessings on your path.
And thanks Mimi for that “nakeder”; that which is not feeling or thinking of knowing stuff.
Hi Michael, Hi Kathy.
Didn't mean to do a hit n run on your blog!
It is possible that I may check out this Jed guys book…LOL. I tried again to look at your profile Michael and I wasn't able to do so. I find that when I am repsonding to someone here on Gaia that I do not know, I am able to better respond when I know a little something about the person. And that ties into why I asked you about your personal experience with the book. I run into way too many people online that love to share wisdom, ideas, bs, information, disinformation, etc. found in the writings of others yet they do not have any real comprehension of what they are sharing. Thank you for not falling into that group! I am all for sharing recomendations and I am even more for finding out about the person behind the recommendation.
As far as deconstruction goes I am all for it! It can be gentle and it can be full on impact. I think it is a matter of where the deconstructee is at in life and what part of life is being deconstructed. I have been fortunate in that I have not really had to experience a deconstruction in order to find T/truth. Having not been raised religiously meant that I was not filled with the beliefs of others. There was no “deprogramming/deconstructing for me to do on that level. It has been more like peeling back the layers. I continue to peel the layers and more truth is revealed.
You said, “Voraciously pursuing truth - not my truth or someone else's truth - but Truth with a capital T. This is the only kind of truth that really exists. So many people talk of “one truth.” and so many people have different ideas of what that truth is. So tell me, for YOU, what is Truth? I believe that we are all at various stages of truth and that what is true for one is not necessarily true for another. It's a matter of how deep one dives into the truth.
My two cents for the moment.
Namaste,
Mimi
dare i comment?
“enlightenment” as a goal, something to strive for, i gots big problems with that…
“enlightenment” as something a person would call themselves, again, stirs some big problems for me.
and the main reason i got problems with that word, is not in what the word itself means to anyone in particular, even though it is one of those vague meaningless words that nobody really can agree on a given definition, my problems with it are because it denotes a spiritual heirarchy, implies that some people are better than others. i simply cannot believe that is true.
i do think, personally, just my opinion y'all, that “enlightenment” refers to a connection with the ancient wisdom… difficult to talk about if you aren't already somewhat familiar with my beliefs… we all of us contain this same ancient wisdom, a divine spark if-you-will, every one of us, equally. some people choose to ignore it, is all. doesn't make those who are more connected to it any better than them, just means they are more spiritually healthy. so the process many people would refer to as “awakening” i believe is just a kind of healing. there's always room for more healing. it's a never-ending process, as we learn something new each day.
just like some folks are more physically healthy than others, some folks are more spiritually healthy, some folks are more emotionally healthy, some are more psychologically healthy… where any of us are in our path of healing all aspects of ourselves does not make us any better than anyone else. ;-)
Hey Boogie,
I liked these comments of yours, right here, best of anything you have written.
ditto.
Hi Stacy,
I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE what you wrote. It reminded me of a recent experience. A friend of mine participates in a Spiritual Unity Group here in L.A. The guy that facilitates the group is, in my opinion, very ego based. So anyway, every month I receive a pre-recorder phone message from him announcing that month's full moon meditation. He begins the message with “HELLO MY ENIGHTENED FRIEND!!” My reaction was “You don't even know me, who are YOU to declare me or acknowledge that I am enlightened!?!” My husbands reaction was that by calling people enlightened, this guy is creating a “spiritual clique.” “OOoooooh he sees me as enlightened therefore I will of course go to the gathering and pay my donation.” Needless to say, I never went back to any of the gatherings. It's just too far of a drive for me to validate someone's ego trip. Even if it was one block away it would still be too far!
Hi, y'all.
This is all getting really interesting, but, right now, I am not interested in sliding down some slippery slope to Erehwon. Not trying to be critical or judgmental, just trying to let you know where I am at and why I will not be fully engaging in some of the questions and ideas presented above.
My personal goal is not enlightenment. I am preparing to take the first step to uncovering truth - not my truth, or some really old dude's truth, or even Jed McKenna's truth - but truth. The first part of this process for me, perhaps the most significant part of this process, is deconstruction. If you think through what this process might entail, it does not give you warm fuzzy goosebumps or even bring a smile to your face (or the face of anyone around you). And, while I might eventually end up in the same territory as Buddha, or Jesus, or Gandhi, or some ancient wisdom, it will not be because I read it somewhere and feel like it is truth (no matter how intuitively it feels true); it will be because I know it is truth.
Mimi, if I tried to answer your question, I would mostly be telling you about “my truth”. While this might contain some truth we could all agree on, in my humble opinion (IMHO), it would not be worth the paper we could print it on.
If you are interested in becoming enlightened, or even just heading down this path, or even just ridding yourself of childlike fantasies, here is an excerpt from Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing that I think describes a process that just might work:
“Here's all you need to know to become enlightened:
Sit down,
shut up,
and ask yourself what's true until you know.
That's it. That's the whole deal - a complete teaching of enlightenment, a complete practice. If you ever have any questions or problems - no matter what the question or problem is - the answer is always exactly the same:
Sit down, shut up, and ask yourself what's true until you know.”
“But …
a complete spiritual teaching that fits on a matchbook cover is not what anyone really wants.
( So … )
Arthur tells me he wants a technique. Rather, he wants the technique. I really only have one technique and everybody who comes to the house soon learns what it is from other students, but, oddly, nobody seems to practice it until they receive it from me. I've laid it out many times and tried to put it in the public domain for the use of whoever wants it, but it has remained strangely proprietary, as if the only way it can work is if this comes directly from me. There's really not much to it, but I guess there's not much to closing your eyes and repeating a mantra or counting your breaths either.
“Okay, Arthur,” I begin, “the technique is called Spiritual Autolysis. Autolysis means self-digestion, and spiritual means … hell, I don't really know. Let's say it means that level of self which encompasses the mental, physical and emotional aspects. Put the two words together and you have a process through which you feed yourself, one piece at a time, into the purifying digestive fires.”
“May I ask a question?” Arthur asks.
“Yes, Arthur.”
“You make Spiritual Autolysis sound rather unpleasant.”
“Yes, Arthur, it's an unpleasant process.”
“Oh. I see. Thank you.”
“You're welcome. The process of Spiritual Autolysis is basically like a Zen koan on steroids. All you really have to do is write the truth.”
“Write the truth?”
“Sounds simple, doesn't it? Yes, that's all there is to it. Just write down what you know is true, or what you think is true, and keep writing until you've come up with something that is true.”
“There are three hundred and sixty degrees in a circle,” says Arthur.
“Sure,” I agree. “Start with something as seemingly indisputable as that, and then start examining the foundation upon which that statement is built and just keep following it down until you've reached bedrock, something solid - true.”
“There aren't three hundred and sixty degrees in a circle? he asks.
“The question presupposes that there's a circle.”
“There's not a circle?”
“Maybe. I don't know. Is there?”
“Well, if I draw a circle…”
“I? When did you confirm the existence of an “I”? Draw? Have you already raced past the part where you confirmed that you are a separate physical being in a physical universe with the ability to perceive, to draw? Have you already confirmed duality as truth?”
Arthur is thoughtful and silent for several moments. “I guess that's what you mean by following it down. This is very confusing. I don't even know where to start.”
“It doesn't matter where you start. You could start by using Ramana Maharshi's query, “Who am I?” or ”What is me?”, and then just work at it. Just try to say something true and keep at it until you do. Write and rewrite. Make it cleaner and cut out the excess and ego and follow it wherever it leads until you're done …
“And by done, you mean … ?”
“Done.”
“Oh. Is this like journaling? Like keeping a diary?”
“Ah, good question. No. This isn't about personal awareness or self-exploration. It's not about feelings or insights. It's not about personal or spiritual evolution. This is about what you know for sure, about what you are sure you know is true, about what you are that is true …”
If you are interested, I would love to have a discussion about Spiritual Autolysis and all that this might entail. Has anyone ever done anything that is similar?
I should have indicated this in my prior post, but I copied the excerpt above from a website called livereal.com. Other than to copy this excerpt from Jed's book about Spiritual Autolysis, I have never explored livereal.com and have no idea if it is any good. I left the links above intact primarily because I was lazy and did not feel like removing them. Click through at your own risk. : )
Never met one, and I never will.
(I am a member of a Zen community in Stockholm, being run by two fully transmissioned Teachers. http://www.zazen.se/)
Never?
Bravo star, every little one..
Through a childs eyes…
Our planet is a little bouncing beach ball of change, on this sea of life. We just have to remember how to get home when we think it's getting dark. Sometimes, even when our friends challenge us, it's nice to try to hold their hand at the end of the day. Only together, can our starlight help us find our way, in this cosmic soup of choices and beauty…
We are all the same on the inside. We are just trying to remember…how to be 1.
We should ACT ourselves toward Enlightenment,
even if we don't hit The Big Time- so what?
one doesn't lose anything by trying–
we all gain by Enlightened Thinking that leads to Enlightened Action.
Hi everyone! I think this Enlightenment question goes on and on. Yes, no & maybe so…. We keep circling around and around on this issue. I think it's one that interests so many of us. Thank you everyone for all your wisdom and good answers. It's good to hear so many different opinions and thoughts and feelings. Blessings, All.
If we as individuals can learn to let whatever happens; and I mean, WHATEVER happens, let it be OK. If we can learn that ability, wouldn't that mean that person has attained the higher state of enlightenment?
Yes, I have. And the thing that made him fascinating is that he could talk to me in my own language using the same words/pictures I tell myself. And he could move through a small crowd of people and everyone would see the same movement differently … cloaked in meaningfulness. Density. All the synapses firing. Magnetism moved us like an etch-a-sketch. Events would happen around him. Bigger things than I can describe happened in tandem. So now when I get back to that place he illuminated in my heart and I can see how things are happening all around me (the way they happened around him) I experience namaste.
Well described, hello Bird ;)